knee pain FROM squatting correctly
Posted: 24 November 2013 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]
Hound
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  87
Joined  2011-12-03

Serious conundrum for me: been doing crossfit for a few months. I have done the classic barbell movements for about three years now - squatting, DL, press and bench at least once a week. I was the form nazi amongst my buddies and had good gains in all lifts with no pain. I had a decently wide squat stance with my feet turned slightly outwards.

I bet people will probably respond to my ultimate question by suggesting that I was probably squatting with poor form and just didn’t know it, but it was actually very squared away for a novice lifter who was setting 275. To preemptively counter this, consider that when I started front squatting regularly a year ago, it was immediately very easy for me to break parallel with an upright torso with 185 on my shoulders, due to my form commitments with my back squat.
. Fast forward to about three weeks ago, when I consulted a large amount of Kelly starrett and Carl paoli’s expert advice on proper squat and pistol mechanics (knees drive out, feet essentially straight ahead,knee and hip angle break simultaneously, a few other pointers).
I immediately started implementing these practices a bit at a time…no huge changes here, just conscientiously driving the knees laterally more than I had. Looking better, achieving depth easier l, and developing my infant overhead squat.

Alarmingly, however, my left knee has become extremely sore post squatting. Like the top of my calf, medial patella, and the knee is clicking a lot… I’m thinking that this may be muscular and/or ligaments not being used to the proper kstarr form I have started, and hope it’s merely adaptation to the newer “better” squat. Obviously this is foolish to continue doing if it is causing injury…I HAD an pain-free decent squat before “perfecting” my form.

Has anyone else experienced this when changing up squat form? PS it feels totally fine, better than fine while I’m actually squatting. Thanks for any advice.

 Signature 

M/25/5’11”/200

Profile
 
 
Posted: 30 November 2013 09:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Boxer
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  778
Joined  2012-02-26

I like and use a lot of what KStarr suggests, but he is just a man and sometimes men are wrong.  I read an article by another PT and competitive weightlifter recently that said he sees a lot of athletes that experience knee pain following KStarr’s “drive the knees out” approach.  He said it is quickly corrected by going back to a feet angled slightly out, and allowing the knee to track over the foot, rather than forcing it wider than the foot.  It’s a lengthy read, but here’s the link.  http://dsstrength.com/2013/11/11/supple-leopards-vs-the-world-my-take-on-the-knees-out-debate/

 Signature 

M/29/6’/165
Crossfit Birthday 3/6/12
Starting weight 145

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 December 2013 03:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Hound
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  87
Joined  2011-12-03
jchcrawk - 30 November 2013 09:11 PM

I like and use a lot of what KStarr suggests, but he is just a man and sometimes men are wrong.  I read an article by another PT and competitive weightlifter recently that said he sees a lot of athletes that experience knee pain following KStarr’s “drive the knees out” approach.  He said it is quickly corrected by going back to a feet angled slightly out, and allowing the knee to track over the foot, rather than forcing it wider than the foot.  It’s a lengthy read, but here’s the link.  http://dsstrength.com/2013/11/11/supple-leopards-vs-the-world-my-take-on-the-knees-out-debate/

Hey thanks a lot jchcrawk, I am suspecting this may be the case for me. Appreciate the link.

 Signature 

M/25/5’11”/200

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 December 2013 07:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Boxer
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  778
Joined  2012-02-26

You’re welcome.  Glad I could help.

 Signature 

M/29/6’/165
Crossfit Birthday 3/6/12
Starting weight 145

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 December 2013 10:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  14108
Joined  2004-06-18

My guess is Kelly is being misinterpreted.

 Signature 

All of life’s problems can be solved by heavy deadlifts.

M/54/5’11”/190

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  14108
Joined  2004-06-18

As an example, people say Kelly recommends toes pointing directly forward.  I asked Kelly directly about this and he said that was false, that the ideal would be toes out 5-15 degrees.  In my book that would be toes slightly out.

 Signature 

All of life’s problems can be solved by heavy deadlifts.

M/54/5’11”/190

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 11:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3872
Joined  2009-03-01

One other thing he mentioned to me when I saw him for my knee pain is that you need the hip and ankle mobility for toes slightly out, which means that if you need yours toes at a 30-45 degree angle, trying to switch straight to 15 overnight is going to cause you some problems, so you need to gradually progress it.

 Signature 

M/42/210#
Crossfit Birthday: 2/12/2009
FB: http://www.facebook.com/frosty996
Inertia plays a mighty role in recovery, and an object at rest on a couch can stay there for a long time.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 01:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  14108
Joined  2004-06-18

Yeah..demanding to be flexible, Right Now, generally causes problems.

I have a conference call with Kelly tonight regarding squats.

 Signature 

All of life’s problems can be solved by heavy deadlifts.

M/54/5’11”/190

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Hound
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  87
Joined  2011-12-03

Good point on not expecting changing squat form and foot angle overnight to be very healthy. Update on my original dilemma: I’ve been working k Starr’s hip and ankle mobility for > 2 minutes per side prior to squatting the past few weeks, and am feeling much better during and after squats. I hit back squats and front squats every week, and whatever squatting comes up in the wods. So I think it was just a matter of getting acclimated. And it didn’t help that I have a moderately high squat volume and changed the knee position/ foot angle overnight.

 Signature 

M/25/5’11”/200

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Boxer
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  778
Joined  2012-02-26

Rereading what I posted earlier, it seems I came across more negative than intended. I definitely agree with GD that some of the problem is misinterpretation. By the same token, it is important to look at more than one source of information sometimes. Thanks for your input on this GD. Sorry if I came across as bashing Starrett.

 Signature 

M/29/6’/165
Crossfit Birthday 3/6/12
Starting weight 145

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  14108
Joined  2004-06-18
jchcrawk - 03 December 2013 06:53 PM

Rereading what I posted earlier, it seems I came across more negative than intended. I definitely agree with GD that some of the problem is misinterpretation. By the same token, it is important to look at more than one source of information sometimes. Thanks for your input on this GD. Sorry if I came across as bashing Starrett.

We only get better by constantly questioning.  I am sensitive to misinterpretation given my work with kids and what is said about our program in the media.

 Signature 

All of life’s problems can be solved by heavy deadlifts.

M/54/5’11”/190

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 December 2013 07:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Boxer
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  778
Joined  2012-02-26
Garddawg - 03 December 2013 07:05 PM
jchcrawk - 03 December 2013 06:53 PM

Rereading what I posted earlier, it seems I came across more negative than intended. I definitely agree with GD that some of the problem is misinterpretation. By the same token, it is important to look at more than one source of information sometimes. Thanks for your input on this GD. Sorry if I came across as bashing Starrett.

We only get better by constantly questioning.  I am sensitive to misinterpretation given my work with kids and what is said about our program in the media.

Completely understandable.

 Signature 

M/29/6’/165
Crossfit Birthday 3/6/12
Starting weight 145

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2014 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  3
Joined  2014-06-05

At some point it wont matter the reason for the start of knee pain if there has been damage to the structures of the knee.. the cartilage, tendons, meniscus, ligaments etc all need to be addressed isolated if damaged and again if you change form for the better it will decrease the overall strain over the long haul but the damaged structures need to be identified and addressed.  MSK Ultrasound or diagnostic Ultrasound is very good at this but it can’t ID an ACL strain… an MRI would be better for that. 

Anyways my recommendations to my athletes is to get an image, see a doc who understands Crossfit, and co-manage with your coach.  This video should help.  http://www.p2sportscare.com/2014/06/01/msk-ultrasound-of-the-knee/

MSK Ultrasound of the knee is a great way to properly diagnose conditions of the knee such as IT Band Syndrome, Popliteal Tendinitis, and Lateral Meniscus Tear.  All three of these lateral knee conditions seem very similar in pain pattern to runners and Crossfitters.  I have found in my practice it is not uncommon for athletes to come in telling us they have IT Band pain only to realize on MRI or Ultrasound exam we find tears in the meniscus or irritation to the popliteal tendon sheath.  We have put together a short video on a very accurate way of properly diagnosing lateral knee pain with MSK Ultrasound of the knee.

Profile