Why high rep olympic lifts are never a good idea from a tradional strength coaches perpective.  Doing sets of 3 or less allows good form to be maintai
Posted: 04 June 2014 06:04 AM   [ Ignore ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26

I noticed we have had some very High rep counts for the power snatch. As an ex Olympic lifter I have always had issues with any high reps especially on a technically demanding lift such as the snatch. I found some Videos to demonstrate how badly ones form can degrade just doing Isabel I can’t imagine 50 reps on anything except Double unders .I will concede this individual is doing to much weight for one and is demonstrating bad form even on 1st rep.  notice the bend in elbows finishing with more of a press. In Olympic lifting you work on keeping your arms straight and elbows locked during pull and transitioning overhead , You can’t just muscle the weights an Elite level Olympic lifter will use in competition. He relies instead on kinetic energy to get the weight into that locked overhead position. Heres the example of a Crossfitter doing Isabel with 135 Lbs. You will see form degradation occur quickly on this individual http://youtu.be/o6wpCw65NYY  Now compare this to a trained Olympic lifter doing the same thing . Kendrick Farris is a trained Elite level Olympic lifter with a 347 lbs Snatch. Here he is doing Isabel. Note how his arms hang on pull and his elbows are locked transitioning overhead, You will also notice form degradation on Kendrick as exhaustion sets in . The reason. Olympic lifters don’t do more than 5 reps of anything. There is no gain in doing a movement with poor form so reps are kept low for repeatability.  http://youtu.be/TAZgiahlvjs  Ok I know this doesn’t help those folks who are saying   What am I supposed to do then?  I know you folks racing a clock will hate to hear this , but I propose you break the 50 reps into 1 at a time ’ 3 tops. I understand there will be no record times set. But you gain the benefit of programming proper form into your brain.  Who out there doesn’t want to do the big impressive weights. Well to do them safe you got to do them with perfect form every time. That’s just a fact. Not trying to make your lifes miserable just addressing some truths about how Ego will mess you up everytime. Keep it light and work proper form by focusing on the individual rep. not 10    


just for clarification you won’t get strong doing weights that you can do for 50 reps. the weight would be way to light for any measurable strength gains. Endurance yes , Big lifts No. that requires 5-3 rep max range loads.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 08:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4644
Joined  2007-11-13

“Never” is a dangerous word… wink

CrossFit espouses sound mechanics and consistency before increasing intensity (whether that be speed or load).  So you are right in your final point that EGO gets in the way.  Ego in ourselves in the weights and tempo we choose for ourselves and even worse, as trainers in the weights and tempo we impose on others.  Showing videos of poor form is easy to do however, I would always strive to set a positive example of what you want to see.  Would you agree that, allowing for minimal degradation of form, the last five reps of Isabel should look similar to the first five?  If you can do this with 75# in 90sec, awesome - next time move up to 85#, and so on…  If you can do it with 225# in 7+ min like Froning, even better and perhaps he will try to push that time in future.  The same standards apply at both ends of the spectrum.  If those standards are met (doing 30 unbroken or as singles), what is inherently improper with doing 30reps?  Clearly there is some training/fitness advantage, right?  I mean your example of Faris who can 1rep snatch 347# doing Isabel suggests that while he is super strong in that lift, he has a deficit in terms of local muscular endurance in that same lift.  Granted, he does not need that with his sport of choice however, in terms of of what we consider to be the goal: broad, inclusive, general fitness this is a deficit nonetheless.

I believe I understood the point of your post, the need for sound mechanics, but I think the way to go about stressing that is to talk directly about that issue (form and ego) rather than blame the 30rep construct.  Perhaps a better thread title would be “An over-inflated ego and poor form are NEVER good things to have when attempting Isabel.”

 Signature 

44yo male, 6’0” 181-85# Began WODs Nov. 2003 (first CF post Feb. 2004)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26
JDG - 04 June 2014 08:22 AM

“Never” is a dangerous word… wink

CrossFit espouses sound mechanics and consistency before increasing intensity (whether that be speed or load).  So you are right in your final point that EGO gets in the way.  Ego in ourselves in the weights and tempo we choose for ourselves and even worse, as trainers in the weights and tempo we impose on others.  Showing videos of poor form is easy to do however, I would always strive to set a positive example of what you want to see.  Would you agree that, allowing for minimal degradation of form, the last five reps of Isabel should look similar to the first five?  If you can do this with 75# in 90sec, awesome - next time move up to 85#, and so on…  If you can do it with 225# in 7+ min like Froning, even better and perhaps he will try to push that time in future.  The same standards apply at both ends of the spectrum.  If those standards are met (doing 30 unbroken or as singles), what is inherently improper with doing 30reps?  Clearly there is some training/fitness advantage, right?  I mean your example of Faris who can 1rep snatch 347# doing Isabel suggests that while he is super strong in that lift, he has a deficit in terms of local muscular endurance in that same lift.  Granted, he does not need that with his sport of choice however, in terms of of what we consider to be the goal: broad, inclusive, general fitness this is a deficit nonetheless.

I believe I understood the point of your post, the need for sound mechanics, but I think the way to go about stressing that is to talk directly about that issue (form and ego) rather than blame the 30rep construct.  Perhaps a better thread title would be “An over-inflated ego and poor form are NEVER good things to have when attempting Isabel.”

OK lets go through this point by point. I guessed that I would possibly raise the Ire of true Crossfits enthusiast such as yourself. I know you are very loyal to all things Crossfit and GardDawg in Particular Since you train with him. Your devotion is commendable.  I wrote and posted Videos based on traditional view points on Olympic lifts. In Olympic lifting we lift with focus on Increasing our max Singles .There fore we omit anything that has no real demonstrable benefits.If you can show me any program at the national level that employs 30 reps as part of a lifting program I would like to see it. As far as posting a Video of Lifter performing Isabel poorly I just youtubed the first video that came up I assure you there are plenty more that show the same form degradation . Peoples legs start going first,then they shift to a pull that is all lower back , then they start pressing out the lift because theres not enough strength left to develop sufficient kinetic energy. That’s the normal sequence of events. You make the point of me not allowing for some loss from 1st 5 to last 5. What I witnessed was not a small loss. That was a total breakdown where even core stability was compromised to a dangerous level. When the back gets loose it becomes risky proposition. Now if you read my post to completion you would see where I said If you are going to do the 50 do them with a focus on one at a time. That means take a rest from last one, reset and do it with the best form possible. Just ignore the clock. You and I view training differently. So we will never come to an agreement on this issue. I believe 30 reps is just means to elevate ones heart rate to an Anearobic threshold. I have never seen a Olympic lifter in competition get anywhere near his Anearobic threshold.Same in powerlifting. Doesn’t go with the territory , you seem to believe a strength gain with light weights is possible. Never met a strength athlete yet who had that training philosophy. Since that is what I was speaking of when I referenced becoming a stronger lifter I think I was right on point. Using Kendrick as an example was to demonstrate. that even a 347 Snatcher   couldn’t pull it off without taking substantial rests suffering form loss.In his world that is a major form loss given how fine tuned he is to work at Elite level. you are totally dedicated to crossfit as sport , I think its interesting and has some some good points that I like to employ . On the issue of high reps using Olympic lifts I have seen nothing over the last 3 years that would change my position. As a trainer I tend to investigate and use myself as a guinea pig since I still have a tiny bit of muscle left on my emaciated body wink .I think its pretty clear to a lot of people that the Top open level athletes are moving big iron because they embrace a traditional approach using heavy sets of 5s and below. You don’t develop a 275 x 1 snatch or 315 x 1 C+J doing 30 reps as your foundation . My point is what its always been. Program the lift in to the Brain by doing the lift 1 perfectly executed lift at a time. If your going to do 30 than do each rep with an eye towards making each rep a carbon copy of the 1 before. and yes that means the accumulated effect of 1st 25 will slow one down to a 3 minute rest between reps on last 5 potentially . I never could understand the benefit of racing the clock and a 200 BPM heartrate on lifts that were intended to be done as singles.  Sorry if I missed some of your points .I think I am right on point from a trainers perspective. If the title is the real point of Contention I will softening it for Diplomacies sake, The message of the post will remain the same though. I disagree with using a lift that has potential to injure people seriously as tool for getting ones heart rate up for a timed event. Since crossfit asks the athlete to do these lifts at max singles ,triples, 5s as part of there programming they should spend more time on developing these skills on a weekly basis.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 02:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9838
Joined  2007-01-08

I think you’re talking about 2 different things, 2 different uses for the “Snatch” and “Clean and Jerk” movements.

There is the classic use of the exercises as heavy, low rep max effort lifts.
Those are done with the best form possible and reasonably strict adherence to various international body’s rules for performance.

They’re mostly trained the way you describe OPG and the traditional lifting community doesn’t have much argument with how CrossFit does that. Well no more than they have between their own internal factions about the best way to train them.

Then there is the contentious bit, the use of the “Snatch” and “Clean and Jerk” for metabolic conditioning.
I put the names in quotes because really, what CrossFit is doing isn’t really a Snatch or a Clean and Jerk. That’s a convenient label that is used to describe them, but really, they’re a completely different exercise that is better described as snatch or clean grip ground to overhead, any technique allowed. “Any technique” being the point of contention.
In good CrossFit gyms, like Brand X, “any technique” has a very narrow definition and it looks a lot like a muscle snatch or power clean and pressing push jerk. Back doesn’t round, legs drive the movement, hips stay down but not a** to ground.
Everything stays safe and coaches stop people who deviate from that.
Weights are light to moderate at best and are scaled to keep them that way.

Maybe that isn’t what you’ve seen OPG, but I can absolutely assure you that’s how it happens at Brand X and at least at a few other CF gyms. Hopefully many, but my personal knowledge only lets me talk about a few.

In the second situation, the exercises have nothing to do with training classic weightlifting technique or CNS adaptation, they’re strictly used for metabolic conditioning.
In that case, a lightly loaded Snatch is not really much different than a burpee. In both you put your hands down low, then put them overhead while jumping. The burpee has a press up in the middle and the Snatch has a bar in your hands.
Both have exactly the same possibility for poor movement patterns and stress on the back and knees.
But no-one argues with people doing high rep burpees, Except the people doing them.

In competition, you might see high rep heavy deadlifts and you might see the sort of form you’d expect to see with that. Arguing about form in competition is a silly exercises. I have seen some ugly deadlifts and squats. Some benches that make my shoulders hurt thinking about them and some snatches and clean and jerks that were pretty hairy. Not so much with the snatch and C&J as the margin for error is narrower.

In training, I do have some issue with only doing low rep snatch and C&J.

Dance, martial arts, gymnastics, every movement training that I can think of use extremely high repetitions of movements to ingrain muscle memory. Even musicians practise techniques over and over until they don’t have to consciously think about what they’re doing and can concentrate on the music. When it comes to learning the movement patterns in the Olympic lifts I can‘t see why that isn’t a valid teaching method.
Use light weights, moderate at most and do the movements over and over again with a coach observing and requiring perfect technique.
Throw in some metabolic stress to challenge the athlete so that they learn to retain perfect technique and you’ve got a very potent technique to learn any movement. It’s what martial arts schools do the world over and, is the classic CrossFit metcon.

To go beyond light weights you need the classic low rep training. Which is what CrossFit also advocates.

I can point you at people capable of doing Isabel with lovely form through the whole workout at prescribed weights. That’s because for them, the weight is light.
Rich Froning is one example.
If it isn’t light and the form is becoming unsafe, the workout is being performed incorrectly and that should be addressed.
That’s an issue of poor weight selection and/or poor coaching, not of the validity of the snatch and clean and jerk in high rep workouts.

I don’t know where this idea that CF advocates the use of high reps to build maximal strength is coming from.
It doesn’t, GD doesn’t and in fact GD is known in the CF community for documenting a program that demonstrates how to incorporate low rep work with modified traditional CrossFit programming to give strength gains over what CF normally achieves.

For young athletes and beginners, he uses metcons as a training tool to test and improve technique.  That’s because they need the repetitions to develop the muscle memory and in the case of young athletes (pre-adolescent), because their training needs are not best met by low rep work.
To get people (including his now adult kids) beastly strong, he uses low rep work exactly as you’d expect.

 Signature 

Craig Massey


“The point of CF is to get better at life.  Being unable to workout tomorrow because you were pigheaded today is not in line with our goals.”
Garddawg - 22 March 2009

“CrossFit is not dangerous.
Bad coaching is dangerous, poor movement is dangerous. Ego is dangerous.
CrossFit, properly scaled to the individual is the safest and most efficient program available for strength, conditioning and movement.”
BlueBugofJustice - 18 August 2009

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 02:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  4644
Joined  2007-11-13

You are a participant on a CrossFit-related board, is it surprising that those who have populated it the longest are some of its most ardent supporters?  My friendship with GD has no bearing whatsoever with my thought processes or opinions.

“If you can show me any program at the national level that employs 30 reps as part of a lifting program I would like to see it.”
  The lack of evidence proving something does not necessarily preclude its validity.  And so Faris’ decision to utilize CrossFit does not qualify as “part?”  Or Lauren Fisher or any of the other CrossFitters that are now entering lifting compeptitions?  Can a combined hybrid program not work - I think time will tell…

“You make the point of me not allowing for some loss from 1st 5 to last 5.”
  You missed my point.  I want equal form on the first 5 as in the last 5 – there we agree…  The obstacle to achieving this is NOT the 30rep programming but the individual or trainer that allows a weight to be used where the mechanics and consistency cannot be maintained.

“I have never seen a Olympic lifter in competition get anywhere near his Anearobic threshold.  Same in powerlifting. Doesn’t go with the territory.”
  Agreed, and I said that as well.  However, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a part of overall fitness – something for non-specialists who desire it to improve upon.

“you seem to believe a strength gain with light weights is possible”
  Yes, it is possible, as has been determined in these (and other) controlled studies.  World record, Olympic quality lifts - no.  But improved enough for everyday life, yes.
  Mitchell, C. J. et al. Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men. Journal of Applied Physiology 113, 71–77 (2012).
  Burd, N. A. et al. Low-load high volume resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis more than high-load low volume resistance exercise in young men. PLoS ONE 5, e12033 (2010).

“you are totally dedicated to crossfit as sport”
  Please do not speak for me, sir.  I do CrossFit to maintain health, not to compete.

“If your going to do 30 than do each rep with an eye towards making each rep a carbon copy of the 1 before. and yes that means the accumulated effect of 1st 25 will slow one down to a 3 minute rest between reps on last 5 potentially”
  I (and CrossFit) agree 100%.  Just because others don’t follow this advice doesn’t mean that it is not preached.  Similarly, you should acknowledge that there are individuals who can complete Isabel in under 90sec (or Froning’s @225 in 7+min) where form IS maintained throughout.

“I disagree with using a lift that has potential to injure people seriously as tool for getting ones heart rate up for a timed event.”
  Therefore with injury rates between 2.5 and 12.1 per 1000 hours (>10x those of weightlifting), running is now too dangerous to prescribe for elevating HR?  Just curious, is it the movement or the risk you are concerned with?
van Mechelen W. Running injuries. A review of the epidemiological literature. Sports Med. 1992 Nov;14(5):320-35. Review. PubMed PMID: 1439399.

I appreciate your thoughts on the topic, and we have more in common concerning our desires for improved mechanics in all movements than not.

Good day, sir.

 Signature 

44yo male, 6’0” 181-85# Began WODs Nov. 2003 (first CF post Feb. 2004)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26
Metric - 04 June 2014 02:20 PM

I think you’re talking about 2 different things, 2 different uses for the “Snatch” and “Clean and Jerk” movements.

There is the classic use of the exercises as heavy, low rep max effort lifts.
Those are done with the best form possible and reasonably strict adherence to various international body’s rules for performance.

They’re mostly trained the way you describe OPG and the traditional lifting community doesn’t have much argument with how CrossFit does that. Well no more than they have between their own internal factions about the best way to train them.

Then there is the contentious bit, the use of the “Snatch” and “Clean and Jerk” for metabolic conditioning.
I put the names in quotes because really, what CrossFit is doing isn’t really a Snatch or a Clean and Jerk. That’s a convenient label that is used to describe them, but really, they’re a completely different exercise that is better described as snatch or clean grip ground to overhead, any technique allowed. “Any technique” being the point of contention.
In good CrossFit gyms, like Brand X, “any technique” has a very narrow definition and it looks a lot like a muscle snatch or power clean and pressing push jerk. Back doesn’t round, legs drive the movement, hips stay down but not a** to ground.
Everything stays safe and coaches stop people who deviate from that.
Weights are light to moderate at best and are scaled to keep them that way.

Maybe that isn’t what you’ve seen OPG, but I can absolutely assure you that’s how it happens at Brand X and at least at a few other CF gyms. Hopefully many, but my personal knowledge only lets me talk about a few.

In the second situation, the exercises have nothing to do with training classic weightlifting technique or CNS adaptation, they’re strictly used for metabolic conditioning.
In that case, a lightly loaded Snatch is not really much different than a burpee. In both you put your hands down low, then put them overhead while jumping. The burpee has a press up in the middle and the Snatch has a bar in your hands.
Both have exactly the same possibility for poor movement patterns and stress on the back and knees.
But no-one argues with people doing high rep burpees, Except the people doing them.

In competition, you might see high rep heavy deadlifts and you might see the sort of form you’d expect to see with that. Arguing about form in competition is a silly exercises. I have seen some ugly deadlifts and squats. Some benches that make my shoulders hurt thinking about them and some snatches and clean and jerks that were pretty hairy. Not so much with the snatch and C&J as the margin for error is narrower.

In training, I do have some issue with only doing low rep snatch and C&J.

Dance, martial arts, gymnastics, every movement training that I can think of use extremely high repetitions of movements to ingrain muscle memory. Even musicians practise techniques over and over until they don’t have to consciously think about what they’re doing and can concentrate on the music. When it comes to learning the movement patterns in the Olympic lifts I can‘t see why that isn’t a valid teaching method.
Use light weights, moderate at most and do the movements over and over again with a coach observing and requiring perfect technique.
Throw in some metabolic stress to challenge the athlete so that they learn to retain perfect technique and you’ve got a very potent technique to learn any movement. It’s what martial arts schools do the world over and, is the classic CrossFit metcon.

To go beyond light weights you need the classic low rep training. Which is what CrossFit also advocates.

I can point you at people capable of doing Isabel with lovely form through the whole workout at prescribed weights. That’s because for them, the weight is light.
Rich Froning is one example.
If it isn’t light and the form is becoming unsafe, the workout is being performed incorrectly and that should be addressed.
That’s an issue of poor weight selection and/or poor coaching, not of the validity of the snatch and clean and jerk in high rep workouts.

I don’t know where this idea that CF advocates the use of high reps to build maximal strength is coming from.
It doesn’t, GD doesn’t and in fact GD is known in the CF community for documenting a program that demonstrates how to incorporate low rep work with modified traditional CrossFit programming to give strength gains over what CF normally achieves.

For young athletes and beginners, he uses metcons as a training tool to test and improve technique.  That’s because they need the repetitions to develop the muscle memory and in the case of young athletes (pre-adolescent), because their training needs are not best met by low rep work.
To get people (including his now adult kids) beastly strong, he uses low rep work exactly as you’d expect.

Hi Craig, Man did I open pandoras Box again LOL I would have no problem with 30 reps if that was all crossfit did regarding Olympic lifting. That’s not the case though. We see single maxes x 5-7 sets triple max 5-7 sets 5 s x 5 sets. Were talking about significant weights for people who haven’t developed proper overhead squat,Front squat. Jerk, Snatch, hang snatch,clean, power clean. None of those disciplines have been properly developed. Bear in mind I am referring to the folks on site who don’t visit a box, so no ones watching them. hopefully that narrows down my frame of reference . Don’t get me wrong there are some Bad boxes out there also with CFL1 folks who only have the most basic knowledge.  . You raise a point about Olympic lifting Coaches having no problem with the Crossfit programs wonder if that is because a lot of said coaches who’s first love is traditional Olympic lifting have become Affiliates themselves to pay bills.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26
JDG - 04 June 2014 02:45 PM

You are a participant on a CrossFit-related board, is it surprising that those who have populated it the longest are some of its most ardent supporters?  My friendship with GD has no bearing whatsoever with my thought processes or opinions.

“If you can show me any program at the national level that employs 30 reps as part of a lifting program I would like to see it.”
  The lack of evidence proving something does not necessarily preclude its validity.  And so Faris’ decision to utilize CrossFit does not qualify as “part?”  Or Lauren Fisher or any of the other CrossFitters that are now entering lifting compeptitions?  Can a combined hybrid program not work - I think time will tell…

“You make the point of me not allowing for some loss from 1st 5 to last 5.”
  You missed my point.  I want equal form on the first 5 as in the last 5 – there we agree…  The obstacle to achieving this is NOT the 30rep programming but the individual or trainer that allows a weight to be used where the mechanics and consistency cannot be maintained.

“I have never seen a Olympic lifter in competition get anywhere near his Anearobic threshold.  Same in powerlifting. Doesn’t go with the territory.”
  Agreed, and I said that as well.  However, that doesn’t mean that it isn’t a part of overall fitness – something for non-specialists who desire it to improve upon.

“you seem to believe a strength gain with light weights is possible”
  Yes, it is possible, as has been determined in these (and other) controlled studies.  World record, Olympic quality lifts - no.  But improved enough for everyday life, yes.
  Mitchell, C. J. et al. Resistance exercise load does not determine training-mediated hypertrophic gains in young men. Journal of Applied Physiology 113, 71–77 (2012).
  Burd, N. A. et al. Low-load high volume resistance exercise stimulates muscle protein synthesis more than high-load low volume resistance exercise in young men. PLoS ONE 5, e12033 (2010).

“you are totally dedicated to crossfit as sport”
  Please do not speak for me, sir.  I do CrossFit to maintain health, not to compete.

“If your going to do 30 than do each rep with an eye towards making each rep a carbon copy of the 1 before. and yes that means the accumulated effect of 1st 25 will slow one down to a 3 minute rest between reps on last 5 potentially”
  I (and CrossFit) agree 100%.  Just because others don’t follow this advice doesn’t mean that it is not preached.  Similarly, you should acknowledge that there are individuals who can complete Isabel in under 90sec (or Froning’s @225 in 7+min) where form IS maintained throughout.

“I disagree with using a lift that has potential to injure people seriously as tool for getting ones heart rate up for a timed event.”
  Therefore with injury rates between 2.5 and 12.1 per 1000 hours (>10x those of weightlifting), running is now too dangerous to prescribe for elevating HR?  Just curious, is it the movement or the risk you are concerned with?
van Mechelen W. Running injuries. A review of the epidemiological literature. Sports Med. 1992 Nov;14(5):320-35. Review. PubMed PMID: 1439399.

I appreciate your thoughts on the topic, and we have more in common concerning our desires for improved mechanics in all movements than not.

Good day, sir.

well I guess opposing view points have no place . I will disagree with you on every counter point and stand by my beliefs as you will yours. best of luck.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  9838
Joined  2007-01-08
OPG57 - 04 June 2014 03:10 PM

Hi Craig, Man did I open pandoras Box again LOL I would have no problem with 30 reps if that was all crossfit did regarding Olympic lifting. That’s not the case though. We see single maxes x 5-7 sets triple max 5-7 sets 5 s x 5 sets. Were talking about significant weights for people who haven’t developed proper overhead squat,Front squat. Jerk, Snatch, hang snatch,clean, power clean. None of those disciplines have been properly developed. Bear in mind I am referring to the folks on site who don’t visit a box, so no ones watching them. hopefully that narrows down my frame of reference . Don’t get me wrong there are some Bad boxes out there also with CFL1 folks who only have the most basic knowledge.  . You raise a point about Olympic lifting Coaches having no problem with the Crossfit programs wonder if that is because a lot of said coaches who’s first love is traditional Olympic lifting have become Affiliates themselves to pay bills.

Gotcha.

Yes, agree that people shouldn’t tackle workouts like that as max effort work.
They’re better to treat them as technique days and work on that instead.

Whether people need to be working on the olympic lifts weekly to prepare for the bigger weights is a tougher call. They absolutely could, but I’d suggest that it’s more a matter of assessing individual weaknesses and prioritising the things that will have the biggest impact overall. Might be o. lifts, might be their air squat, might be gymnastics.
That’s the problem with coaching via the forum, it’s hard to know what the real limiting factor is for people.

 Signature 

Craig Massey


“The point of CF is to get better at life.  Being unable to workout tomorrow because you were pigheaded today is not in line with our goals.”
Garddawg - 22 March 2009

“CrossFit is not dangerous.
Bad coaching is dangerous, poor movement is dangerous. Ego is dangerous.
CrossFit, properly scaled to the individual is the safest and most efficient program available for strength, conditioning and movement.”
BlueBugofJustice - 18 August 2009

Profile
 
 
Posted: 04 June 2014 05:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26
Metric - 04 June 2014 03:41 PM
OPG57 - 04 June 2014 03:10 PM

Hi Craig, Man did I open pandoras Box again LOL I would have no problem with 30 reps if that was all crossfit did regarding Olympic lifting. That’s not the case though. We see single maxes x 5-7 sets triple max 5-7 sets 5 s x 5 sets. Were talking about significant weights for people who haven’t developed proper overhead squat,Front squat. Jerk, Snatch, hang snatch,clean, power clean. None of those disciplines have been properly developed. Bear in mind I am referring to the folks on site who don’t visit a box, so no ones watching them. hopefully that narrows down my frame of reference . Don’t get me wrong there are some Bad boxes out there also with CFL1 folks who only have the most basic knowledge.  . You raise a point about Olympic lifting Coaches having no problem with the Crossfit programs wonder if that is because a lot of said coaches who’s first love is traditional Olympic lifting have become Affiliates themselves to pay bills.

Gotcha.

Yes, agree that people shouldn’t tackle workouts like that as max effort work.
They’re better to treat them as technique days and work on that instead.

Whether people need to be working on the olympic lifts weekly to prepare for the bigger weights is a tougher call. They absolutely could, but I’d suggest that it’s more a matter of assessing individual weaknesses and prioritising the things that will have the biggest impact overall. Might be o. lifts, might be their air squat, might be gymnastics.
That’s the problem with coaching via the forum, it’s hard to know what the real limiting factor is for people.

Sorry I was so brief on last post. I had more to say but you wrote a book and left me few characters to respond with LOL You raise good points on Dance and practicing a particular musical piece.Neither of which have a sizable weight overhead wanting come crashing down on you wink I know you remember 3 years ago when I made this same mistake of advancing a differing opinion on this same subject. I think I made a valid arguments then as I did today. I used video to reenforce my argument . . When I look at Crossfits programs , The first thing I do is access there potential for injury.(I know that’s not possible if you scale) As a guy who actively trained Powerlifting and olymplic lifting longer than the majority of people on this site.I think I’m qualified to make that determination. Olympic lifts Top my list of the most dangerous lifts I have encountered , Therefore require the greatest respect.  I know what it feels to have 209 lbs snatch come crashing down on my neck and tearing my right medial triceps. That’s why I am so outspoken on Olympic lifts being used in a active program without the specialized training the lifts require due to their inherent dangers. Anyone who has the stomach go watch Olympic lifting accidents on youtube watch the Blackouts the dislocated elbows /shoulders, weights crashing down on heads. And those are Elite lifters. It will get your attention quick. Olympic lifts will bite you hard if you don’t give them proper respect that is due them. That’s why I never take anything about there training lightly even if its 55 lbs being thrown overhead 50 times. with a snatch grip. Perfect form execution minimizes accidents .


I would like to be clear with all concerned.  There was never an intent in any way shape or form to agitate , belittle or Attack anyone and I didn’t. My message was about why I think high reps on technically demanding lifts are not a good idea because they cause form breakdown very quickly.I believe that any movement you set out to do repetitively is being done to effectively program the motor pathways into the brain to make it more efficient and Safer. My being from a traditional strength back ground makes me approach things in that manner. We stay with lower repititions and progressive resistance because our Goal is to lift as heavy a 1 rep max.as possible. Due to the extreme workloads involved we have to take precautions to use every safety practice we can at our disposal. Spotters, Safety racks, knee wraps, belts. anything to minimize risk to the lifter. Factor in that you are asking a lifter such as my wife to trains for years. Doing essentially the same thing in each training cycle to get progressively stronger. You find out quick that you have to change things up during the year so reps and sets combinations are tweaked here and there if boredom or stagnation starts to show up. I had an alternate gym of a friend who helped with Lea Ann on occasion. We would go to his place and do a max session on squats mostly.The Atmoshpere would generally motivate her to do her best lifts. The point I’m making is that training over years requires a lot of dedication to your lifter, Especially your Wife. You have to deal with that person when there done with all those heavy sessions. Things like having to cook dinner yourself because you were responsible for them being worn out on your program. You also have to be mindful that there bodies can take only so much abuse, Therefore training cycles have to split up in Strength/conditioning/strength /conditioning cycles. It is also essential that your athlete is given full recovery periods after each cycle where there is no diet and training period. This allows them to mentally and Physically recover . I’m telling you all this to give you understanding of where my thought processes comes from .I don’t make observations capriciously .I usually bring stuff up after I’ve looked at a movement thouroughly.  That means actually tried the movement out myself and determined whether it was effective and safe. I don’t do this with every movement just ones that my gut feeling from years of training tells me to question.For those who took this as a personal assault let me say you misunderstood me and my intentions.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2014 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1683
Joined  2008-02-14
OPG57 - 04 June 2014 05:33 PM

I would like to be clear with all concerned.  There was never an intent in any way shape or form to agitate , belittle or Attack anyone and I didn’t.

I think you’re good, OPG.  You’ve been very consistent with your posts in offering encouragement and sound advice.  I read this string with interest and I honestly appreciate you stating your opinion.  You’ve got a great background and experience and the fact that you offer feedback is wonderful.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2014 08:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3518
Joined  2013-07-26
canis_nerdus - 05 June 2014 08:12 AM
OPG57 - 04 June 2014 05:33 PM

I would like to be clear with all concerned.  There was never an intent in any way shape or form to agitate , belittle or Attack anyone and I didn’t.

I think you’re good, OPG.  You’ve been very consistent with your posts in offering encouragement and sound advice.  I read this string with interest and I honestly appreciate you stating your opinion.  You’ve got a great background and experience and the fact that you offer feedback is wonderful.

Thank you that means a lot to me.

 Signature 

M/ 57/ 72.5”/ 265
F /52/ 59’’ /173 Olypowergal
     

The eyes of the arrogant will be humbled and human pride brought low; The Lord alone will be exalted in that day. Isaiah 2:11

Profile
 
 
Posted: 05 June 2014 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  14099
Joined  2004-06-18

I am going to respond to all of this in the CFSB thread as well as probably tie in Jeesh’s thread on getting old and not making progress.

 Signature 

All of life’s problems can be solved by heavy deadlifts.

M/54/5’11”/190

Profile