5 of 5
5
Recovery
Posted: 13 January 2009 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]
Moderator
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  13263
Joined  2007-01-30
Spamuel - 13 January 2009 07:46 AM

TexasPatrick:  Oblivion/Fallout3 quests are the worst if you’re trying to get to sleep.  There’s always one more little thing to do, and then the next quest sounds so good…...(especially if there’s achievements involved)

BWAHAHAHAAA!!

Oh my.  Have you been looking in my window? 


<geek> Yeah, video games are heck on my weekend sleep . . . “just one . . . more . . . quest . . . evil coursing through the land . . . now how do I make that damn Elf visible again . . . . . ” 

Fallout 3 . . . man I loved me some Fallout on the PC . . . . but right now Bioshock, Gears of War 2, and Dead Space (coooool game) are taking up the small space between work/family/wife and sleep . . .</geek>

 Signature 

The common denominator of success—- the secret of success of every man who has ever been successful—- lies in the fact that he formed the habit of doing things that failures don’t like to do.—Albert Grey

“Really Connor? Really?”—Jeff Martin

http://rantopedia.blogspot.com/ (my blog)
http://www.facebook.com/patrick.hoffman1

M-47/5’11”/180lbs

There’s a reason they don’t call it “Fight Gone Good”.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 March 2013 10:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  5
Joined  2013-03-11
TexasPatrick - 09 October 2008 05:59 AM

Okay, something I don’t see much of so I thought I’d start a thread.  Here are my basic thoughts (and the impetus for this thread is a cold of indeterminate effect .  . . I’m not 100% but not dead yet):

I tend to think of fitness as requiring 3 “legs” to stand on.

Stimulus (exercise)
Fuel (food)
Rest/Recovery.

Of the three, the one I don’t have a good plan for is the rest/recovery phase.  I tend not to get that much sleep during the week. 

So what are some of the things folks do to maximize this?  I think, for starters, I think I need to focus on a couple more things:

1) Sufficent sleep.  7 hours is probably not enough (and that’s just rack time, not actual sleep time, though I do fall asleep pretty quick).
2) Pay more attention to the soft tissue things, like rolling around on my foam roller, etc.. 
3) Active rest days.  Doing something on “rest” days besides figuring how many beers I can have and stay on the zone . . . (7.5 if you’re asking . . . ).

Any ideas?  What works? What doesn’t? 

TP

I really don’t know why people who spend years studying weight training /gymnastics / martial arts / sport/ crossfit or what have you don’t devote time to studing the “science of sleep”

There is plenty of junk science out there, but I like to read and study and experiment and use WHAT WORKS in the REAL WORLD, not just in some isolated study.

With that in mind, I urge anyone who wants to have better quality sleep, improved concentration throughtout the workday, or your workout or study session to devote at least 5-10 hours reading about the science of sleep, and in particular “polyphasic sleep”, and then do some reading on brain waves / cycles/ hertz

Here’s a couple of pages for some basic basics like “what the hell is polyphasic sleep”

http://www.supermemo.com/articles/polyphasic.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphasic_sleep

Brain Waves Basics:

http://www.doctorhugo.org/brainwaves/brainwaves.html

Also, if anyone has read Tim Ferriss’ book The 4 Hour Body, there is a section in there that sums up the basics really well and takes about ten minutes to read, and you can literally start using the process straight away.


From an evolutionary point of view, we are FAR better off sleeping multiple times throughout a 24 period.

The idea that our ancestors slept all night and didn’t do anything is complete garbage, even hunter gatherers, who generally were active in ngith, whether it was by moonlight or fire etc..

Anyway, I’ve read many books on sleep, and I don’t recommend any one over the other.  You can read most of what you need to know online, for free, if you invest the time.

Anyway, I’ll add more later as I’m out of time.

But my current sleeping schedule is sleeping 4.5 hours a night, followed by a morning 20 minute meditation, I usually do another two sessions of meditation during the day at ten minutes each.

If I DO NOT do the meditations then I will have a 30 minute nap in the evening, or after work, whichever suits.

The whole idea about sleep and routine to me is utter BULLSHIT.

YES a routine helps, but we are far more flexible and adaptable than the rigid modern society we live in suggests.

Polyphasic sleep is the most practical for every day working family folks if you simple take away ONE HOUR from however much you currently sleep and then have a 30 minute in the evening.  You don’t have to be all the way asleep in the 30 minute evening nap.

If you lie down, put a towel or something over your eyes, close the curtains to make it as dark as possible, and perhaps put on some soft music if your mind will not turn off (your thoughts, which is why EVERYONE should learn to meditate) you will be guaranteed to get into at least a light alpha state, and the more you practice, YES PRACTICE, like anything in life, the better you get at sleeping.

I can literally fall asleep any time I want these days, even during exercise if I wanted to lie down.
The more you practice, the better you get.

I recommend starting with AUTOGENICS (relaxation exercises) and moving on to basic meditation practice (mind body awareness).  I’ve been using these for….. well over 8 years now and the polyphasic thing I’ve just come back to, and have been sleeping the 4.5 hours (sometimes six if I get lazy about not taking naps!) for about 4 months now.

I told my sister what I was doing and she didn’t believe me.

Most people who sleep 8-10 hours are literally STARVING their bodies during the night.

This DOES NOT HELP RECOVERY.

My suggestion?  Sleep 3.5-4 hours, get up, have a snack, go back to bed.  That’s if you sleep 8+ hours.  You probably wake up stiff as a board too due to reduced circulation from lying down too long, I know I used to and I HATED IT and was determined to find a better way.

I’ve rambled on a bit, but I will do some more reading and post some links for people, but just go and do some reading yourself and it wont take long to start reaping the benefits.

I would not quite say I have a Black Belt in sleeping, yet, but I’d say it’s close!

One of my goals for this year (which I am studying from a book by an Australian author) is to change my brain waves from Beta tro Alpha and Theta at will (I already do this during meditations, but it takes 10-30 minutes). The methods I am studying in a book I’m currently reading have been RIGOUROUSLY tested, and allow you to move into alpha and theta in arond 2-3 minutes - while remaining conscious, from there you can fall asleep at will, meditate, improve your bodies healing by directing your body to heal and many other things.
Actually you move into Alpha and Theta while RETAINING Beta awareness, you know, like Tibetan monks and Indian Yogis have been doing for thousands of years.

 Signature 

He was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, their arrows would block out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we will fight in the shade.’

Profile
 
 
Posted: 11 March 2013 11:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]
Boxer
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  791
Joined  2012-07-04
Australian Ninja - 11 March 2013 10:24 PM

One of my goals for this year (which I am studying from a book by an Australian author) is to change my brain waves from Beta tro Alpha and Theta at will (I already do this during meditations, but it takes 10-30 minutes). The methods I am studying in a book I’m currently reading have been RIGOUROUSLY tested, and allow you to move into alpha and theta in arond 2-3 minutes - while remaining conscious, from there you can fall asleep at will, meditate, improve your bodies healing by directing your body to heal and many other things.
Actually you move into Alpha and Theta while RETAINING Beta awareness, you know, like Tibetan monks and Indian Yogis have been doing for thousands of years.

Nice! If someone wrote it in a book it must be true, right?

 Signature 

M 31/1.79 m/72 kg

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It’s perfect when it arrives and puts itself in our hands. It hopes we’ve learned something from yesterday. - John Wayne

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 March 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  1
Joined  2013-03-12
BathMatt - 09 October 2008 06:32 AM

Good Topic TP.

I am also interested in how much sleep is needed.  I have a bad habit of staying up late for no reason.
What amount to people need to stay effective?


This is a very phenomenal asking from various people and I have an answer from expert i.e. at least 8 hrs. is needed in everyday. Thank you

 Signature 
Chato Stewart 

Chato Stewart

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 March 2013 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  5
Joined  2013-03-11
swedfalcon - 11 March 2013 11:53 PM
Australian Ninja - 11 March 2013 10:24 PM

One of my goals for this year (which I am studying from a book by an Australian author) is to change my brain waves from Beta tro Alpha and Theta at will (I already do this during meditations, but it takes 10-30 minutes). The methods I am studying in a book I’m currently reading have been RIGOUROUSLY tested, and allow you to move into alpha and theta in arond 2-3 minutes - while remaining conscious, from there you can fall asleep at will, meditate, improve your bodies healing by directing your body to heal and many other things.
Actually you move into Alpha and Theta while RETAINING Beta awareness, you know, like Tibetan monks and Indian Yogis have been doing for thousands of years.

Nice! If someone wrote it in a book it must be true, right?

Well, if someone published a book containing the results of studies they set up with their own organistation (privately funded) that logged many hundreds of hours with many people (staff) that was specifically aimed at inducing alpha, theta and delta brain waves in an alert conscious state (retaining Beta awareness), meaning a state where you mind is awake, but your body is asleep - then yes I find value in such a book.


I first started meditating around eight years ago, and as stated, I already regularly move into alpha and theta states - the difference with this book is how to do it without meditating, in a shorter period of time.  The exercises are very simple, and take about a month of practice to learn effectively (as does most mindbody learning - be it starting a new exercise program, quitting smoking or whatever).

There are literally decades worth of research on brain wave states thanks to Hans Berger
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Berger#Research

He is best known as the first to record human electroencephalograms (EEGs or “brain waves”) in 1924, for which he invented the electroencephalogram (giving the device its name),[1] and the discoverer of the alpha wave rhythm known as “Berger’s wave”.

....Using the EEG he was also the first to describe the different waves or rhythms which were present in the normal and abnormal brain, such as the alpha wave rhythm (7.812–13.28 Hz), also known as “Berger’s wave”; and its suppression (substitution by the faster beta waves) when the subject opens the eyes (the so-called alpha blockade). He also studied and described for the first time the nature of EEG alterations in brain diseases such as epilepsy.

There has also been many studies done on Meditation, including the famous studies with Meditators and EEG machines
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_on_meditation#cite_note-45

Since the 1950s, 3,000 studies on meditation have been conducted and yet many of the early studies had multiple flaws and thus yielded less conclusive data.[13][14] More recent reviews have pointed out many of these flaws with the hope of guiding current research into a more fruitful path.[15] More reports assessed that further research needs to be directed towards the theoretical grounding and definition of meditation.[13][16]


This 2010 study is interesting (but boring) reading:

Meditation acutely improves psychomotor vigilance, and may decrease sleep need

http://www.behavioralandbrainfunctions.com/content/6/1/47

 Signature 

He was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, their arrows would block out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we will fight in the shade.’

Profile
 
 
Posted: 12 March 2013 04:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  5
Joined  2013-03-11

Apologies for two posts in a row, but the word count would max out so…...


Getting back to the topic of sleep.

In my experience I used to sleep an average of 7-8 hours per night, for say…. at least the last fifteen years.

I first experimented with Polyphasic sleep about seven years ago, I was unemployed at the time, and could basically sleep whenever I wanted to.  I succeeded in being able to sleep whenever I wanted, and improving teh quality of my sleep, which was thanks to learning AUTOGENIC exercises.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogenic_training


Anyway, I never went more than about three sleep sessions in any twenty four hours.  My CONSCIOUS AIM was to improve the quality of my sleep, and to be able to go to sleep easily, whenever and wherever I wanted to.  It was never my intention to go for the UBER man sleep cycle, although I may give it a go in the future just to see what I can learn from it.

I DO NOT recommend most people try the Uber man sleep pattern, as it can be quite dangerous if you have no background in Meditation, that is mind-body-awareness training.

Last year I read the Tim Ferriss 4 Hour Body book and was reminded of Polyphasic sleep cycling (rather than the Monophasic pattern, mono=one, so one BLOCK of sleep) and immediately decided to try out the methods again, seeing as I had intended to get back to learning more about Poly.

I decided to start by moving from 8 hours per night, to seven hours per night, with a half hour nap in the evening.

Only, I didn’t bother with the naps, as I felt fine each day, drove to work safely, walked up the seven flights of stairs, did my usual walks an excercises with no difference whatsoever.

So I dropped down to 6 hours after a week or two and started doing the half hour naps at night.
My naps were not “all the way asleep”.  Often I lie down for 30 minutes with my ipod and listen to an audio program, that is spoken word, audiobook, something inspiring preferably, where the author has a soft even voice (slow tempo).  I will usually still be aware of my surroundings, and could talk to someone if they asked me a question.

Anyhow, other times I’ll be in a deeper nap, of have some lucid dreams, where I am awake (beta) but also dreaming in Alpha.  During this state your dreams are more interesting imo, because you consciously control what happens, and can change what is happening if you like.


Anyhow, I PROGRESSIVELY decreased the amount of sleep down to my current 4.5 hour block, with a 30-60 min nap in the evening, or afternoon if I have the day off work.  During my naps I can get up at any time because I retain the “everday awake” Beta awareness.  Beta is what you would be in now if you are rading this.  You cycle through alpha /theta / delta /gamma / beta during sleep and WHILE YOU ARE AWAKE every day. 


When you daydream and are not aware of time, you are in usually in Alpha.

Anyway, I hope this gives some basic info for people.  I urge anyoen SERIOUS about improving the quality of their sleep, and ther performance of their training

(I currently go to a weekly Yoga class, a Tai Chi class, and once or twice to the gym, current focus on strength training with some kettlebell training, deadlift (crossfit style, thanks to my local crossfit/MMA gym, those guys really helped improve my lift, technique and posture).  I also work in a factory where I walk (and run*) up and down a seven story buildiing in 40-55 celcius heat in summer, and it is 30 celsius in the winter.


*The running part I do in the morning, to warm up, it is NOT part of my job, and most people (smokers all) think I am crazy for doing it.


I also do some daily calisthenics (bodyweight only) push-ups, free squats, handstand, handstand pushups,  AND go for a one hour walk most days.
I also previously studied Tae-kwon-do and Ju-jitsu fo several years, and know what it is like to have painful joints when you exercise and train poorly.
Sometimes I do interval hill sprints (forwards and backwards), but less of that lately to focus on strength training.

I know what it is like to be tired, sick, not recover well etc, so I am always learning and I HATE when injuries take too long to heal.  I used to wonder whether I could keep exercising at the same intensity, recover properly after lifting, drive safely to work (it used to be 45 min drive each way, but now it is only ten minutes seeing as I moved closer to work), carry on a lucid conversation and pay attention to people, go shopping etc, WITHOUT getting patches of ‘BLAH’, where you zone out in a sleep deprived state, and ducntion poorly.

Well I wonder no longer.
You CAN sleep less, do more, recover properly when you train yourself to get the best quality sleep possible.

I do recommend that people get serious injuries sleep more, and if you are not heling properly after weights etc then you probably need more sleep.  but you can still break your sleep cycle in half, or a third and get better results (better sleep) without changing how much you sleep.


I’m motivated to be in the best possible health, so I keep reading and studying and finding WHAT WORKS.  In sleep, meditation, martial arts, lifting, walking, runing

 Signature 

He was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, their arrows would block out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we will fight in the shade.’

Profile
 
 
Posted: 13 March 2013 09:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]
Top Dawg
Avatar
RankRankRankRankRankRankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1683
Joined  2008-02-14

Apparently brevity is overrated.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 March 2013 04:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  5
Joined  2013-03-11

Two things I have observed can sabotage peoples efforts to get good quality sleep:

1.  Eating a gigantic meal (of cooked food, especially cooked starches and proteins) before sleep.

Doing this if fine if you plan to sleep in, but remember remember that digestion takes a LOT of energy, the more cooked foods you eat, (devoid of raw enzymes), the more your body has to adapt by draining its own supply.

Solution:  eat smaller meals more frequently, so you don’t over tax your digestion, and make yourself sleepy, or force your body to sleep off the över-loaded state (of digestion)
Also, the more raw foods you eat, the easier it is for your body to digest them.  This translates (in my experience) to more available energy, less need for sleep.


Personally, I eat raw fruit, eggs, vegetables, meats.


The difference from eating cooked vs raw meat (protein) is amazing.  Lets say you ate a big plate of cooked mince meat and vegetables, then 30 minutes later went for a hard hill run or sprint.  Most likely you would vomit, or at least not feel very good.

Take the same meat, eat it raw - and you will find that you can exercise 30-60 minutes later without any trouble.  Obviously is better to have more like 90-mins to two hours gap after foods for high intensity exercise to avoid foods fermenting in your gut etc (with the exception of having say a some raw eggs or piece of fruit 30-60 minutes before exercising).

2. Sleep cycles->

http://blog.wakemate.com/2011/04/05/743/

Myth:
Sleep cycles are 90 minutes long. Sleeping in 90 minute increments will help you sleep efficiently and allow you to wake up feeling refreshed. [1] There’s even an app for that! [2]

Reality:
Sleep cycles are comprised of 5 stages; stages 1-4 and REM. While it is true the mean sleep cycle is 90 minutes, the range is actually 60 – 110 minutes. Journalistic enthusiasm seems to have glossed over the simple, but critical, fact that 90 minutes is only an average length. [3] Additionally, after the first few sleep cycles, that amount of time you spend in stages 3 and 4 decreases, while the time spent in stages 1, 2 and REM increases. [4]
Since it’s almost impossible to time your sleep cycles, sleeping in 90 minute increments does not ensure you will wake up refreshed. That is why waking up to a traditional alarm is like playing Russian Roulette with your early morning sanity.

I’ve only just started reading more about sleep cycles - the cycles /waves / states your brain goes through while you sleep.

Despite what this blog says, I have found the 90 minute period useful as a general rule or guideline, rather than hard “science”.

Say for example I have a block of sleep where I can sleep for 5 hours.  I would rather (and do) sleep for four and a half hours instead, beacause I find that I can CONSISTENTLY wake during the part of the my sleep cycle that leaves me refreshed and alert upon waking.

Another example would be sleeping for six hours, rather than five and a half hours or seven hours.  Six hours would be two ninety minute periods.  If I sleep longer for any reason (on a weekend, if I am overly fatigued in my muscle tissue from work or weight training) I will choose to sleep for around six hours, rather than seven or eight.

If I am still fatigued for any reason, I may have an afternoon sleep for another 1-2 hours.  This ensures that my body is getting plenty of QUALITY rest.


For anyone serious and open minded, it helps to know that whatever you are thinking when you go to bed at night, will generally be what you think and experience first thing in the morning.

For example I have used the intention for many years (as I go to sleep) “I will awaken refreshed and full of energy in the morning”

If you go to bed thinking “Man, am I tired, I don’t want to go to work in the morning”,  then you there is a fair chance on those days that you will sleep in, and/or awaken feeling lethargic, and perhaps even feel the beginging of some convenient cold or other illness.  Suggestion goes a long way.


If you think of your mind like a computer, would you fill your computer with JUNK and all the things that you DO NOT WANT?
Why not? 
Would it work very well if you spent all your time and energy filling your computer with junk and useless progams that harmed your computer?


*Please note that I base everything here on personal experience**, I have done all of the above stated things (good and bad results) and value WHAT WORKS in the real world over peoples IDEAS about what they think is “best” or ““recommended by experts”.
**except for the vomiting, I’ve been close to vomiting from hills sprints, but have not actually puked from it ....yet.

Anyhow, I hope people who want better quality sleep, consistently, day after day, year after, in any environment, no matter how good or bad things are in your life situation, find some of these suggestions useful


“A wise man will be a master of his mind, a fool will be its slave” 
-Publilius Syrus

* I think my record for non-stop Fallout 3 was around 12-14 hours.  If you want to sleep, this game is NOT your friend.  But it is one of my all time favourite games, and on some odd weekends, I may stay up all night with a good RPG.

The interesting thing is with games such as this, that allow immersion, subjective time moves differently, as you enter a state of flow.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)

I’ve experience it most within the virtual worlds of GTA Vice City, Deus Ex, and Fallout 3, not to mention in Ju-Jitsu lessons that went for 60-90 minutes, but subjectively FELT like about 15 minutes.  It is the same during meditation, sessions of 30-60 minutes generally feel subjectively like about 10-20 minutes.  The effect seems to increase too, so that if you meditated for three hours, it may only feel like a half hour has passed, or no time at all.  You enter into a “timeless” state.

 Signature 

He was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, their arrows would block out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we will fight in the shade.’

Profile
 
 
Posted: 15 March 2013 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]
Puppy Dawg
Rank
Total Posts:  5
Joined  2013-03-11
canis_nerdus - 13 March 2013 09:30 AM

Apparently brevity is overrated.

There is a time and a place for all things.

 Signature 

He was told by a native of Trachis that the Persian archers were so numerous that, their arrows would block out the sun. Dienekes, however, undaunted by this prospect, remarked with a laugh, ‘Good. Then we will fight in the shade.’

Profile
 
 
   
5 of 5
5